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[Ryderstorm]

When people stop talking about the aspects of the discussion and instead start throwing insults at the people in the discussion, that's when I leave the discussion. Debating is one thing - picking a fight is another.
_________________
Know thyself.

[3rdRcn]

I would ask that you point out those insults as I was very careful to not insult but to address your statements with facts, which is something you failed to do in "your debate".

Ryder, I would love to debate the subject matter with you but you can not come to a debate and insult peoples intelligence and not expect to get called out on it. As is typical of most liberal debates, you somehow fail to be able to back any of your statements up with facts and then when confronted with them the person confronting you is either name calling or a racist.

I'm sorry if you had your feelings hurt but the last time I checked a debate should be in some way factual and I was also responding to YOUR statements and did not see anywhere in my post that I called you any names or tried to insult you. I did however take offense to your lack of homework and assumption that I am an idiot and know nothing of the constitution, my forefathers papers on the purposes of their first ten amendments and what they were put there for or my lack of being able to "give a little".

You might want to look up the Hughes act of 1986, it was signed by then President Reagan. This act gave the inch to get REAL ASSAULT RIFLES out of civilian hands. Now the liberal party wants to come after my semi auto sporting rifles by fear mongering with the word assault rifle. Think they aren't going to try and take them inch by inch? I think it is the liberal party that needs to give an inch and stop blaming inanimate objects for the failures of our government to provide adequate funding for mental health care.

I could bore you with a whole heap of facts to show you the errors of your parties thinking Ryder but I have already posted things that you wouldn't even read before you came to the "debate" as you call it. Be respectful of others in the debate Ryder and you might be surprised by the respect given in return.

[3rdRcn]

Some interesting statements by our founding fathers of our country, notice none of them have anything to do with a police force or with hunting.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

- Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being
armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

- James Madison

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."

- George Mason

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

-Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8, which is great reading by the way.

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone
who is able might have a gun."

- Patrick Henry

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

- George Washington

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and the keystone under independence."

- George Washington

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"

-Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

These are but a few of the quotes available that might help those that do not know what the founders of our constitution meant when they wrote our bill of rights and the first ten amendments. These are specific to the second amendment.

Lets examine another problem that is far worse than guns and then we can ask ourselves why we are not attacking this problem.

The latest data that I could find shows that in 2011, almost 10,000 people were killed by drunk drivers, we have laws against drinking and driving, why is it that people don't obey them?

In 2011, 9,878 people died in drunk driving crashes - one every 53 minutes.

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration FARS data, 2012.


In fatal crashes in 2010, the highest percentage of drunk drivers was for drivers ages 21 to 24 (34 percent), followed by ages 25 to 34 (30 percent) and 35 to 44 (25 percent).

(National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. “Traffic Safety Facts 2010: Alcohol Impaired Driving” Washington DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 2011.)

So by looking at this alarming statistic, if we didn't let anybody between the ages of 21-44 drive then we could reduce those 9878 deaths dramatically.

In 2010, 211 children were killed in drunk driving crashes. Out of those 211 deaths, 131 (62 percent) were riding with the drunk driver.

(National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. “Traffic Safety Facts 2010: Alcohol Impaired Driving” Washington DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 2011.)

Wonder why no one is screaming about those kids dying. Wait, we could end all of those deaths and all of the 1.41 million drunk driving arrests per year if we just banned alcohol. Why don't we do that again? It worked the first time, right?

Now let's look at some real gun and violent crime statistics.

From 2007-2011, according to the FBI statistics, violent crime numbers went from 0ver 1.42 million crimes to just a little over 1.2 million in 2011. That's less than the number of drunk driving arrests in 2011.

In 2011, there were a total of 12,664 murders in the United States, of those, 8583 were committed by firearms of some type.(that's less than the number of drunk driving deaths of the same year) Almost 1/3 of all homicides or 4081, were committed by means other than firearms.

With those numbers in mind, of the 8583 murders from firearms, only 323 were from rifles and that is rifles of any kind and 6220 from pistols. So the folks who would have you believe that banning rifles and pistols(which are also in Feinsteins bill) would solve the problems while knives and cutting instruments account for 1694 deaths, blunt instruments (clubs & hammers etc.) account for 496 deaths and personal weapons (hands, feet, fists etc.) account for 726 deaths. So why aren't we talking about banning knives & bats, they account for six times the number of deaths than rifles do.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11

The uneducated will tell you that none of these other weapons are capable of mass destruction like a rifle. Unfortunately, the hard data just doesn't support that claim because they aren't being used for mass destruction except in very isolated cases and the killer is in most cases mentally ill and seeks out gun free zones to do their killing because they know they will not come up against any resistance.

Now let's look at something else. Something that could possibly be the real problem here since we have established that it isn't the rifles.

Excerpt from an article written by David Kopel in the Wall Street Journal:
A 2000 New York Times study of 100 rampage murderers found that 47 were mentally ill. In the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry Law (2008), Jason C. Matejkowski and his co-authors reported that 16% of state prisoners who had perpetrated murders were mentally ill.

In the mid-1960s, many of the killings would have been prevented because the severely mentally ill would have been confined and cared for in a state institution. But today, while government at most every level has bloated over the past half-century, mental-health treatment has been decimated. According to a study released in July by the Treatment Advocacy Center, the number of state hospital beds in America per capita has plummeted to 1850 levels, or 14.1 beds per 100,000 people.

Link to full article and a good read: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323723104578185271857424036.html

Some other statistics that are interesting:
Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..
A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.
Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,
(Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.
Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.
Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.
Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his
New York high school.

Missing from list…3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds….
What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21…… killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az

What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24….. killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado

What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or

What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct
Roberts is the only one that was not reported to be on drugs of some kind.

Think these are all coincidences folks and maybe these people would have benefited more from being institutionalized and not medicated? I again submit that we need to look at the real problems here and not feel good politics from hypocrites that think we, as their subjects, are not good enough to have the same protections that they do.

I am not a subject, I am a citizen of the united states and will not stand by and let elitist politicians with carry permits decide I'm not good enough to have a specific firearm. History proves that this is the first step in the road to tyranny, period. It has been proven many times so this would not be the first time for those that would believe their party banter about it being "for the children". If it was about the children then we would be attacking the drunk drivers of this country far harder than we would be attacking gun ownership by LAW ABIDING CITIZENS.

[Super Wabbit]

The following vid talks about words, language and emotions as it applies to gun control.

http://youtu.be/q2riOiBaZrg

[Super Wabbit]

MrColionNoir says it better than me:

http://youtu.be/hR3t7j2tUec

[Super Wabbit]

Affects of reduced capacity magazines. Test conducted by LEO:
http://youtu.be/b2Upjn5DR0o

[3rdRcn]

Those videos are common sense and facts Wabbit, these things are not allowed in the liberal discussions as it tends to bend their idea of utopia.